tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post634753190116387487..comments2013-07-28T05:17:13.986-07:00Comments on RULES COMMITTEE: CONVENTION USA RULES COMMITTEEJudge Brennanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09834815547239620144noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-5407006506547867252013-02-13T12:58:53.429-08:002013-02-13T12:58:53.429-08:00OK, I don't get it. Is this the same Rules Com...OK, I don't get it. Is this the same Rules Committee that I just received an Invitation too? What gives?? I hate blogs!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12684773967457026374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-68449655038302574302013-02-12T11:24:48.233-08:002013-02-12T11:24:48.233-08:00I think recommendations are good but since as of r...I think recommendations are good but since as of right now the members of the rules committee are unknown at this time it is hard to begin discussing issues until we actually know who is making up the committee that will have the final say.Fischer IN004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-84279690818187134792013-02-12T09:40:46.190-08:002013-02-12T09:40:46.190-08:00As an Ex Officio member of of the rules committee,...As an Ex Officio member of of the rules committee, It seems to me that the primary purpose of the rules committee is to thoughtfully draft rules where there is a general consensus among the delegates that such a change would be useful. There has been no discussion among the delegates to determine whether such consensus exists, one way or another.<br /><br />I would suggest that the rules committee recommend that the proposal to from an "always on" convention be referred to an advisory committee of the whole, allowing delegates one week to express their opinions on the matter. This would form a basis for the rules committee to produce a recommendation to bring to the convention floor based on the opinions that are expressed.<br /><br />As Chairman of the Internet Committee, I would suggest that the Delegate Forum at ConventionUSA.org is the best location for this conversation to take place at this time.<br /><br />Ben Pratherutesfan100https://www.blogger.com/profile/12114006842609671124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-61076309439491422382013-02-11T04:37:31.477-08:002013-02-11T04:37:31.477-08:00I am not so sure this would require an addition to...I am not so sure this would require an addition to the rules themselves, since the rules already read 2) Whenever possible, Robert's Rules of Order shall govern the conduct of the Convention.<br />and<br /> 3) A quorum shall consist of one or more Delegates from at least thirty-four State Caucuses.<br /><br />"Always on" would simple recognize the FACT that ALL Captains may participate withing the time constraints established at the Convention 24/7, meaning that ALL make up the quorum, since ALL may be involved in the session. The actual voting would still have to be a majority of at least 18 States or a Super-Majority of at least 22 States and ratifying vote would require at least 37 States.<br /><br />All the "always on" does is open the Convention up without having to try to cram or set aside a day, time, hour, etc. in order to participate. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12684773967457026374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-84653192284171194982013-02-11T04:21:01.192-08:002013-02-11T04:21:01.192-08:00The Convention entertained and seconded my motion ...The Convention entertained and seconded my motion to consider, discuss, and report on changing from trying to get a quorum to meeting for a session on a given date and time TO an "always ON" Convention. I have been involved with several and can explain how it would work extremely well for what we are doing. Please allow me to explain the details to the committee during its deliberations on MY motion. ThanksAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12684773967457026374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-22406592056935795632012-10-14T07:39:05.601-07:002012-10-14T07:39:05.601-07:00What is posted on the ConventionUSA website it wha...What is posted on the ConventionUSA website it what the committee is going to make a Motion to approve. I will second and vote to do so, so we can get to the BOOK of rules that will follow from the Standing Rules Committee formed.<br /><br />We have to get over this hurdle. Then we can have a Quorum Call for Day 3 and begin to weed out deadbeats that do not take an oath seriously.<br /><br />"A Delegate may also be removed for failure to answer the call for a quorum three consecutive times."<br />was in the original Rules when they agreed to them and each took this oath upon registration: "I solemnly swear or affirm that I am registered to vote at the above address; that I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of and that I will faithfully discharge my duties as a delegate to Convention USA according to the best of my ability."<br /><br />To "faithfully discharge my duties as a delegate to Convention USA" one has to participate first!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12684773967457026374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-28979930783964764222012-10-13T13:38:57.521-07:002012-10-13T13:38:57.521-07:00I guess we just have to wait and see what happens ...I guess we just have to wait and see what happens tomorrow night and if there is a report from the rules committee.<br /><br />I would also like to state for the record if there has been no action from the rules committee that there were 3 people ready and willing to serve on it.<br />Delegate Fischer IN004noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-66087274260053741632012-10-13T11:59:56.637-07:002012-10-13T11:59:56.637-07:00What, did the entire committee give up???What, did the entire committee give up???Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12684773967457026374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-35631801920953160622012-10-09T11:25:55.101-07:002012-10-09T11:25:55.101-07:00Delegate Ben Prather (FL012)
I should clarify tha...Delegate Ben Prather (FL012)<br /><br />I should clarify that I am not expecting a perfect set of rules to be drafted here.<br /><br />I am requesting that issues first raised by e-mail to the convention chairman on May 21 be given due diligence in the initial set of rules.utesfan100https://www.blogger.com/profile/12114006842609671124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-16046661638355089812012-10-09T06:20:09.665-07:002012-10-09T06:20:09.665-07:00Trying to come up with THE PERFECT SET of rules be...Trying to come up with THE PERFECT SET of rules before we even have a RULES Committee is not only impossible, but ridiculous!<br /><br />I would hope and pray that this temporary committee come up with a starting set of rules that can be approved in short order, so the important work of a Permanent Rules Committee can begin.<br /><br />I look forward to your report and thank you for your service.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12684773967457026374noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-37313595009069376122012-10-08T10:58:37.927-07:002012-10-08T10:58:37.927-07:00Delegate Charles Fischer (IN004)
To offer my sugg...Delegate Charles Fischer (IN004)<br /><br />To offer my suggestions on the rules. I think the rules committee currently in session needs to see if the previous rules committee has everything the way it should be and if any changes are needed. <br /><br />I think a new Office needs to be created to oversee and handle the votes taken by the convention that person would also have control over the voting thresholds of what defines if something passes or not.The only exception would be amendments to which the current rules would stay in place.<br /><br />Just to address Delegate Prather's suggestions. I think most of them can wait until the permanent rules committee is appointed. <br />I have mentioned this many time I think anything to do with the computers is under the Internet Committee to determine. the rules committee should not be involved in that directly. Maybe that is something you want to add to the internet committee's description.<br />It could read:<br />Internet and technology Committee: maintain convention website. Determine computer capabilities needed to view website or any software needed to participate in the convention. Determine who provides said software also.<br /><br />That would take the concern away from the rules committee on that. <br />Hope these help<br />Delegate Fischer.<br />IN004crfischerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12631457373892139107noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-40887056461090168132012-10-07T22:15:50.894-07:002012-10-07T22:15:50.894-07:00Delegate Ben Prather(012)
PRATHER 5:
I note that ...Delegate Ben Prather(012)<br /><br />PRATHER 5:<br />I note that the proposed rules for a List of Items does not require that all items on the list be included in the next Day of the convention. <br /><br />This leaves the determination of the agenda for a given Day up to the Convention Chairman. It would also make the items left on the list out of order for that Day, as temporarily but not finally disposed of.<br /><br />PRATHER 5 also allows the Convention Chairman to unilaterally put an item to a vote, with a simple majority needed to remove the item from the list. I would amend Section 2 to require a 2/3rds vote, as this is really RRO's Objection to Consideration of a Question. <br /><br />(Objection to Consideration of a Question is yet another vote where the published rules would not consider the vote among the states)<br /><br />PRATHER 5 does guarantee that items raised by a State Caucus and seconded by another State Caucus will be brought before the convention within three months. <br /><br />Maybe six months would be better, I am not prescient enough to make this determination.utesfan100https://www.blogger.com/profile/12114006842609671124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-87200195410809892052012-10-07T21:49:27.087-07:002012-10-07T21:49:27.087-07:00Delegate Ben Prather (FL012)
PRATHER 3:
I note th...Delegate Ben Prather (FL012)<br /><br />PRATHER 3:<br />I note that amending the rules of the convention require prior notice in RRO, as does voting to repeal previous actions taken by the convention.<br /><br />I agree that prior notice concerns are properly addressed in our convention by sending a mass e-mail to delegates at the taking of a vote and the precedent of using a voting period on the order of a few days.utesfan100https://www.blogger.com/profile/12114006842609671124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-77750774687429586272012-10-07T21:42:16.377-07:002012-10-07T21:42:16.377-07:00Delegate Ben Prather (FL012)
PRATHER 2:
In RRO vo...Delegate Ben Prather (FL012)<br /><br />PRATHER 2:<br />In RRO votes are among the delegates, so the vote among the states would not matter for any vote other than what is specified differently.<br /><br />The published rules cover ordinary business, which is any vote requiring a simple majority.<br /><br />For any vote requiring a super majority, prior notice, or a majority of the entire membership, the vote among the states would not matter under the published rules.<br /><br />I thank the Convention Chairman for pointing out the subtle ambiguity in the situation of PRATHER 2 in the cases where two alternate criteria are given in RRO. I amend the wording of PRATHER 2 as follows:<br /><br />1) Unless stated otherwise, the required vote to adopt any motion must use the same criteria for each of:<br />a) the states, and<br />b) the delegates.<br /><br />If there is further ambiguity, a sample case would be instructive.utesfan100https://www.blogger.com/profile/12114006842609671124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-85061493289596119572012-10-07T21:33:54.751-07:002012-10-07T21:33:54.751-07:00Delegate Ben Prather (FL012)
Another motivation w...Delegate Ben Prather (FL012)<br /><br />Another motivation was to express the assumed structure of the convention. I view a few comments on these suggestions particularly unfair. I will take these one at a time.<br /><br />PRATHER 1:<br />Section 3 of PRATHER 1 is essentially identical to the published rules. Thus the delegation is no more in limbo than it would be under the published rules.utesfan100https://www.blogger.com/profile/12114006842609671124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-140449944771533962012-10-07T21:17:44.012-07:002012-10-07T21:17:44.012-07:00Delegate Ben Prather (FL012)
Several of my sugges...Delegate Ben Prather (FL012)<br /><br />Several of my suggestions were made to address the concerns regarding electronic meetings listed in RRO, 11th edition, page 99. I list the six specific concerns raised in RRO here.<br /><br />Without addressing these concerns, delegates will continue to generate "a great many postings which ask questions, make comments and express opinions unrelated to the question under debate."<br /><br />* the type of computer equipment or computer software required for participation in meetings, whether the organization must provide such equipment or software, and contingencies for technical difficulties or malfunctions;<br /><br />This is my motivation for PRATHER 6. <br /><br />Perhaps this would belong in a legal disclaimer in a separate section of the website, but it should be included somewhere.<br /><br />* methods for determining the presence of a quorum;<br /><br />This is already covered in the existing rules.<br /><br />* the conditions under which a member may raise a point of order doubting the presence of a quorum, and the conditions under which the continued presence of a quorum is presumed if no such point of order is raised;<br /><br />In RRO a delegate can raise a point of order questioning a Quorum at any time no one has the floor. Since it is acknowledged in the response to PRATHER 4 that confirming the presence of a quorum is problematic, this rule should be overridden by our publisehed rules.<br /><br />This is the reason for the fourth section of PRATHER 4. <br /><br />With this wording, a point of order doubting the presence of a quorum would be out of order during any Day authorized by a quorum.<br /><br />* methods for seeking recognition and obtaining the floor;<br /><br />This is the motivation for section 5 of PRATHER 4, and PRATHER 5.<br /><br />The idea of these is to formalize the vision that motions come to the floor through the State Caucuses.<br /><br />PRATHER 5 also aims to make this process transparent and offer assurances to the State Caucuses that the issues they raise will come before the floor of the convention.<br /><br />* means by which motions may be submitted in writing during a meeting; and<br /><br />This is the motivation for Section 6 of PRATHER 4.<br /><br />* methods for taking and verifying votes.<br /><br />This has been made clear by precedent. utesfan100https://www.blogger.com/profile/12114006842609671124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-47574391729670550532012-10-07T17:19:08.708-07:002012-10-07T17:19:08.708-07:00PRATHER 6:
Ben's 6th suggestion is unnecessary...PRATHER 6:<br />Ben's 6th suggestion is unnecessary busy work, which simply detracts from the other rules.Thomas E. Brennanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04074239891233597277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-7441717487178735882012-10-07T17:15:59.158-07:002012-10-07T17:15:59.158-07:00PRATHER 5:
There is no need to create itemized ru...PRATHER 5:<br /><br />There is no need to create itemized rules for adopting an agenda. It is the Chairman's responsibility to post a proposed agenda when calling a meeting of the convention. That agenda call be amended by a floor motion. Notice of floor motions go out to all delegates, irrespective of whether they have answered the quorum call. Thus, if a delegate ignored the quorum call because there was nothing on the agenda of interest to him, he will effectively receive notice when the motion to amend the agenda is put up on the web site.Thomas E. Brennanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04074239891233597277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-50134504788702370932012-10-07T17:08:14.787-07:002012-10-07T17:08:14.787-07:00PRATHER 4:
Ben suggests using Session instead of ...PRATHER 4:<br /><br />Ben suggests using Session instead of DAY. I have preferred the word DAY, used not as a 24 hour period, but rather as the defining point for the start of a session of the convention.<br /><br />Because we are operating in an asynchronous environment, recessing of a session is more than merely taking timeout for lunch; thus when the convention recesses, it is not "in session." Therefore, no business can be done, except that for which the recess was taken, i.e. voting, etc. <br /><br />We establish a quorum by voting on a floor motion called a quorum call. Under RRO the chair determines whether there is a quorum by observing the room. Obviously, we can't do that. We can presume that those who have voted to participate in the convention called together on a specified DAY, will continue to participate until the convention adjourns to a day certain under RRO, but the Chairman should have the prerogative to call for a quorum, whenever,in his discretion, participation has diminished to such a point that any action taken could not fairly be assumed to be the will of the convention. <br />Thomas E. Brennanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04074239891233597277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-44174831235359580562012-10-07T16:48:21.730-07:002012-10-07T16:48:21.730-07:00PRATHER 3:
Ben's reference to 'prior noti...PRATHER 3:<br /><br />Ben's reference to 'prior notice'which is used in RRO does not apply to our on line convention.<br /><br />We post a floor motion notice of a meeting of the delegates designated as a DAY, which contains the proposed agenda. Delegates vote YES on the Quorum Call to indicate participation.<br /><br />It must be remembered that we are only proposing proposals for amendments to the constitution. What we propose must 'go public' and win the approval of the States in order to start the process of actual amendment. <br /><br />This is why we should not consider publicizing anything unless, within our convention, at least,it has the kind of broad consensus that a constitutional amendment needs.Thomas E. Brennanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04074239891233597277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-84410389711697356522012-10-07T16:35:00.113-07:002012-10-07T16:35:00.113-07:00PRATHER 2:
There is no need to itemize all the vo...PRATHER 2:<br /><br />There is no need to itemize all the voting requirements of RRO. We have addressed the two which seem most necessary at the outset: constitutional amendments and rules changes. If there is need for other variances from RRO,they cvan be addressed later.<br /><br />The language Ben proposes for VI 4 "among the states and the delegates " is vague and indefinite.Thomas E. Brennanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04074239891233597277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-63786240998306253222012-10-07T16:27:28.268-07:002012-10-07T16:27:28.268-07:00PRATHER 1:
The present language creates an automa...PRATHER 1:<br /><br />The present language creates an automatic captain who serves at the pleasure of the caucus.<br /><br />Ben's suggestion leaves the delegation in limbo until it selects a captain.<br /><br />The mandate that each delegation shall be organized as a State Caucus would include the power to make rules,elect officers, including a Chairman Pro Tem, etc.<br /><br />There is no need to spell out specific powers for a caucus, and the danger in specifying some powers is that some may argue that the caucus has no power but those delegated, which would be unduly restrictive.Thomas E. Brennanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04074239891233597277noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-20274221010540914782012-10-05T10:30:07.481-07:002012-10-05T10:30:07.481-07:00Delegate Ben Prather (FL012)
My fifth suggestion ...Delegate Ben Prather (FL012)<br /><br />My fifth suggestion should be amended to allow an item failing to receive a second by another State Caucus Captain to be removed after three months, before forcing a vote on a Session on that agenda item. utesfan100https://www.blogger.com/profile/12114006842609671124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-47525105386583533262012-10-05T09:56:54.151-07:002012-10-05T09:56:54.151-07:00Delegate Ben Prather (FL012)
Thank you for taking...Delegate Ben Prather (FL012)<br /><br />Thank you for taking the time to consider my concerns about the rules, based on my consideration of the concerns listed on page 99 of RRO and the nature of Convention USA.<br /><br />I welcome the opportunity to discuss issues or concerns anyone may have with any of these ideas.utesfan100https://www.blogger.com/profile/12114006842609671124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5921423800400117415.post-81612982003324963052012-10-05T09:43:24.265-07:002012-10-05T09:43:24.265-07:00Delegate Ben Prather (FL012)
My sixth suggestion ...Delegate Ben Prather (FL012)<br /><br />My sixth suggestion is that Convention USA express specifically that the delegates are required to attain the technology required to participate.<br /><br />I would add something along these lines to ARTICLE IV on delegates:<br /><br />Delegates are responsible for securing the computer and internet capabilities required to access official convention sites. In the event of a technical difficulty or malfunction a Delegate may communicate by direct e-mail to the Convention Chairman, or Committee Chairman responsible for responding to the issue being addressed when the problem occurred.utesfan100https://www.blogger.com/profile/12114006842609671124noreply@blogger.com